Here's one of my favorite games for pre-date banter. It's original origin is from Mystery's Venusian Arts Handbook, but instead of providing comfort, it's modified to maintain intrigue for as long as possible... while looking like you're providing the potential for comfort building.
Here's how I usually open this game:
"Hey, it's going to be awhile before we actually can actually get together, and I know we've both got a million questions. We could write long, boring essays to each other... or we can do something that's fun.
It's called the question game. It's kind of like truth or dare, but, considering that I don't know how twisted you'll get... I think we'll stick with "truth" for now.
Here are the rules:
1. Whoever starts asks one question.
2. That question must be answered truthfully, in one sentence.
3. Once a person answers a question, that person can ask a new one.
4. No question can be repeated.
5. I ask the first question. Is that unfair? Sorry, I didn't write the rules. Oh wait... I did write the rules. Well, they're pretty good rules.
[If you're using text] Your first question will be texted to you soon... have fun!
[If you're using email] How many boyfriends have you had?
Of course, she's going to try to break the rules. Tease her when she does it, and make her obey them. (Reject answers that are more than one sentence, or repeated questions... etc.)
That one-sentence rule is your key - it's easy to be vague (and blame the rules) when you're limited to one sentence. Or, if she asks a question that isn't answerable in one sentence... say so, and let her ask another question.
Have fun with this one, guys...
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13 comments:
OC is normally just basic q-and-a back and forth, isn't it? Yes, you need to keep the discussion limited and the information to a minimum to avoid email hell. But to me, dressing it up as a game and putting rules on it doesn't build intrigue, it seems unnecessary and a little creepy.
If you're asked several questions at once, you can evade the ones you don't want to answer, drop hints about other questions to ask, and generally steer the discussion. This "game" seems like it would create discomfort very easily.
If I was approached in this manner, I'd either close the match or simply ignore the request to "play", and ask/answer whatever I want.
Most women have played this game pretty enthusiastically... and I've NEVER had anyone refuse to play. Ever.
I think that the implication that no questions are off limits makes for VERY intriguing bait.
... but if it doesn't fit into your personality, definitely, don't use it.
In fact, I don't recommend pre-date banter at all, unless you've got a long time before the first date.
I think it comes back to calibration and being able to read the interaction that has happened thus far.
The general thinking with on-line dating is to transition as quickly to real life. But it really depends on the person. I think with sites that are geared more like the pick-up/meat market/bar scene this approach of fast escalation is the best strategy, namely cause the girls are just getting blasted by guys contacting them so moving them off-line is best.
But in the eH world it's slightly different. I find you need to build a certain level of rapport first (if you will pre-date banter) to keep esclating. If you don't build enough rapport she won't be comfortable moving to the next stage.
This comes back to calibration, based off your own personality profile, you should have a good sense of the type of people you attract. If it's more reserved and conservative, these girls require more coaxing to come out.
I'm also finding (from my experience), is that girls that hold back their photos are little bit more shy and reserve so I defintely need to do a number of exchanges during OC.. and then try to move it to a personal e-mail acocunt and then to IM or phone and then to face to face.
On the flip side I have come across profiles with NO PICTURES at all and they are eager to move to a face to face as fast as possible, not being comfortable at all with the whole online thing. From experience, I suggest always, always, always ask for pictures and ask for multiple ones before any meeting. Also bear in mind people can look REALLY different than there pictures.. so asking for more is okay.
It is very tricky... I've lost some for trying to push too fast and then on the flip-side just spiraled into e-mail hell. But usually if I get them to my personal e-mail... I leave quite a bit of hints about meeting up or show me your music collection sometime or I want to see your latest pictures from your vacation, etc.... all very casual and playful. If she doesn't respond to any of that then you kind of know it's just a pen pal and for you to spend time with other people.
What do you mean by pushing too fast? I have several matches stalled right now at the 2nd Question stage. Another after the first Open message, sent by me because SHE had made the initial move. (All have multiple pics for what that's worth) Most of these matches screamed through the 1st Questions and MH/CS exchange, but then things slowed down and/or stopped. I closed one after 10 days of non-response to my 2nd questions, and a week later she sent a final message indicating a desire to re-open. I re-opened and there's been nothing for another 4 days now. WTF?
I followed the advice here and ask my own questions instead of the canned ones. Simple stuff like "what's your favorite tv show" which shouldn't be too scary to answer.
My 3-month membership ends in a couple of weeks, with only one un-memorable meeting, these stalled matches, and some bizarre closed matches (like the email hell match who closed me with "I have too much happening in my life right now"). I'm not in the failure spiral any more, but I do feel myself moving on to the next stage which is probably "this just isn't any fun" and/or "single women in their 30's and 40's are that way for a good reason".
Don't beat yourself up on trying to figure out why a particular match stopped / stalled. Don't get ONEITIST. Don't OVER ANALYZE. DO make notes if you are getting closes for particular reason (like no photos / things like that). But don't fester over them.
I like generating my own questions for the 2nd Set too (the tip I picked up here). But instead of doing the simple.. what's your favorite TV show... try to be much more creative and use it to differentiate yourself from other people.
What I like to do is pull up their About Me page as I put together the questions (in notepad)... yes it takes more effort but I get a much higher conversion rate to OC by making up my own well thought-out questions.
From the About Me you can get a sense of what the women is like, try to read beyond the words. Yes, guys usually don't do this... but this will help... then pick out some themes or things that you can delve into more.
The easiest is to delve more into her passion. So sometimes you see, I'm very passionate about playing with my dog, fish, bunny, hamster... etc... whatever. Well there's your "opening." Ask her about her favorite story about it. Ask her to describe it, how did it make her feel?
People usually will respond well if you inquire about things they care about. When you ask them to describe it and how she feels... you're kind of transporting her back to that "happy time" which she'll also associate with you (indirectly).
This is really good when they say they are very close to their sister/brother/parents... ask about a favorite holiday story... but build rapport by leading with: "I love spending my holiday with family too, share with me your favorite holiday story with your family... did anyone get arrested?" -- that's golden!
Some of this is subconcious psychology stuff.. using mood settings and eliciting some NLP stuff. But try doing things like this and see what happens.
When I meet them in person and ask "oh what did you like about my profile" -- this gives you GREAT feedback on what is working and what is not working... don't be afraid to ask... be a good marketer! They will usually say that they really enjoyed my questions and it helped hook them in that hey this guy is a little different.
The key is to experiment and see what works and doesn't work with your personality (ask for feedback...I did and ended up switching one of my pictures that I didn't know was sending an unintentional message).
Also it all needs to be congruent... you can't be this off the wall guy online and then meet her and be this laid-back reserved kind of guy. Won't work.
The hard thing about eH is that you only get a small sample size to experiement, since you only get up to 7 matches each day. But I do think that if you apply some of these hints... it will really help you stand out... cause in reality... most people are so tired after filling out the questionaire they don't care about the other parts or the process...
Most girls are tired of getting the same old questions... think about it if everyone sends the same old canned questions... then what's really going to compel the girl to respond... maybe your photo, maybe your profile... but usually at this stage they already made up their mind and have an impression.
Asking interesting, creative, and insightful questions will set you apart. They are BORED with the same questions, so give them something that makes them "think"... if you need ideas check out "IF" and "Book of Questions"...
Do this and it'll keep you out of "this isn't any fun anymore" and "I give up on this whole online thing"...
There maybe demographic factors too... since I'm about a generation lower. I do see a shift in attitude just around 30.
You know it maybe worthwhile to watch (and take notes) of the new NBC reality show Age of Love... there you can definitely see how the 20 year olds are quite different than the 40 year olds (cougars).. not sure if there's a term for the 20 y/os -- hotties/HBs? :). From that you can adjust your tactics.
Oh when I meant pushing too fast.. that was during OC.. where I went for the phone number without really building enough comfort before... (live and learn!)
I rarely ever get stuck on the 2nd Quesitons Stage after creating my own questions like this.
Also keep in mind it's summer time... there's A LOT of people taking vacations and just "playing" online... you'll have to fish out which ones that are more serious than others...
Ohhh another good technique.. is even during the 1st set of questions (don't have to do it on all of them just a couple)... use the OTHER area to expand on any one topic... or even just ask other questions about her from her profile or drop hints you'll tell her more... it'll help build interest. If you do it well, you can build enough interest that she'll WANT to keep going through the process just to find out more stuff... this is the technique of not answering all her questions completely... picking a choice on stage 1 questions, is answering her completely... use the OTHER area to build interest/attraction. Try it and see what happens.
Happy hunting!
Good stuff. Of course, you have absolutely no visibility into what's going on at the other end. My focus lately has been in trying to figure out some of the inner workings of the eHarmony site, to gain any edge that I can get. I've sent Scott some emails about things I've noticed - he has my permission to publish them if he wants to ("Fresh from the lab", perhaps?).
Here is a technical point I've just noticed. If you keep your match list under control and watch it carefully, you can get some insight into what they're up to. My list is sorted by Recent Activity, and this morning I see that a stalled match (2nd Questions sent 6/4) has jumped to the top of the list, and the Last Comm. Date now reads 6/9. But the status "Waiting for her answers" has not changed. I assume this means that she finally read the 2nd Questions. This also happened with a match who hadn't answered my 1st Questions after a week... I thought she was a dead profile and was ready to close her out. But I'll give her more time now.
Not all actions change the Last Comm. Date however. That match who never responded to my 2nd Questions sent 5/21 which I closed on 5/31, and she sent a final message on 6/5 causing me to re-open her? Her Last Comm. Date after all that is only 6/3. So the final message and the re-open didn't advance the Last date. But what happened on 6/3? Did she read my reason for closing but not act on it, or did she simply read my 2nd questions for the first time, 13 days after I sent them? (Which I think is unlikely since this match went from first contact through 1st questions and MH/CS exchange in about 36 hours.)
Back to the topic of Questions.
One of the 2nd Questions I've been asking is "When people meet you, what one thing will they remember?" I suppose it looks like a canned question, and it's similar to the profile question "what will they notice", but the goal is to get her to focus on a positive personality trait instead of something physical that she might be sensitive about. Results so far are mixed - one match expanded on her "what do you wish people would notice" topic. But she did think about the question. This same match had "style" in her MH list. My first OC message teased on that, asking whose style she was looking for (Billy Dee Williams? Martha Stewart? Hmmm?) No response after a week. So maybe it worked, maybe it backfired, maybe she hasn't read it yet, who knows.
Oh, another 2nd Question I ask is on career choice. I usually ask the 1st Question "What best describes your attitude toward work?" and most will say "I like my job but my focus is elsewhere". I take that answer and turn it around and inquire where their focus is. This question may not be working too well, maybe it's too job-interview-ish, or maybe these women are planning their exit off the career track to start a family (but don't want to say so).
The only exceptions to this are obvious professionals like doctors, to whom I ask "how did you choose your career and what do you like most about it?". Most write how their job is something they always wanted to do. (And then OC turns into a struggle because of lack of time...)
I really should start my own blog. Although I really don't expect to renew my membership.
Miss "Must Have style" just closed me with "I am pursuing another relationship". Couldn't be bothered to reply to my OC message at all? Thanks for nothing, honey. That's two of you that have closed me that way now, I guess you think that's OK. I of course sent back a "good luck" final message which will allow her to re-open, yeah right.
For everyone's amusement, here's my OC message. I followed the techniques on this site to a T. Didn't I?
---------
Hi (her),
Finally - past the multiple choice stuff, we can talk like grownups now. Thought I would get off a quick note before heading out to the (local baseball team) game tonight. My weeknights can be somewhat unpredictable, this came together at the last minute.
You mentioned "style" in your Must Have's. Martha Stewart style? Billy Dee Williams style? Hmmm?
It'd be nice to meet or talk sometime but for now, some easier questions... what's the last movie you saw? Are you from this area originally? (Don't worry, almost nobody is)
Looking forward to your reply. Off to the game.
(me)
Net Penguin - Good elaboration on setting up the second question set. Thanks.
It's still my experience that, if you treat the exchange of phone numbers and date setup as a "no commitment and no big deal" thing, it's not a big deal. You've already exchanged more information than in most online dating sites... in my experience, the biggest barrier is making them feel comfortable with the fact that you're not one of the lovesick puppies who think they're engaged after structured communication. But, that's just my experience, YMMV as always.
On the other hand... I do use pre-date banter a little more often than I suggest for new people. The information here is primarily guided to helping people out of a failure spiral, and getting them to a point where they're having a some success. But it's something that requires a lot of "frame control" (pardon the technical jargon, non PUAs), which is difficult when you're in a failure spiral. But even if I do use pre-date banter more than I suggest, it still comes after the date is scheduled...
Uncle Fester: There's still a learning curve to this stuff. It takes awhile to master. Is it better than other online services, bars, or whatever? That's your call - and I wish you luck with whatever path you choose to follow.
As far as the open letter goes... you've overlooked some subtle ingredients. Don't worry - I've made the same mistakes. I'll focus on it in tomorrow's article - I think it's a great example for teaching.
I would appreciate it if someone would explain terms like "ONEITIST", "NLP", "mood settings", "frame control" and "PUA". Are they terms from pop psychology, which assume a level of knowledge that the average bonehead like me won't have and shouldn't need?
"From the lab"...
An update on the match to whom I sent 2nd Questions on 5/21... closed on 5/31 for non-response... noticed that she jumped to the top of the Closed/Recent Activity list on 6/3... and requested re-opening on 6/5... with nothing further...
Yesterday (6/10) I sent her a nudge. Within minutes I had her 2nd Answers and her 2nd Questions. However, the time stamp on the 2nd Answers was 6/3. But that was when she should have been Closed and unable to answer, right? Maybe she's been as confused as I've been about the communication flow. If I get to meet her I'll try to find out.
I have reported this to Customer Service, as a possible bug in the system somewhere. If anything comes of this, I will report it here.
Fester - The internet pickup artist community (the PUAs) have a set of jargon that I try to avoid (or at least explain) in my postings. But a good glossary can be found at http://www.fastseduction.com/acronyms.shtml
Wow.
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