Make her chase you into bed!

So, following yesterday's advice, you've casually figured out that you have compatible ideas about the what sex means in a relationship. You've built comfort in your conversations (and in each other's touch)... things are looking good.

Here's where a lot of men make a crucial mistake. Men start chasing women, hoping that, with persistence, women will have sex with them. But when men do this, women start to feel like it's a conquest. They feel objectified. And become more and more uncomfortable with the idea.

Chasing is completely unnecessary. Women like to have sex just as much (if not more) than we do. So... do what you did to get them on the date, and building intimacy with you. Make them chase you.

Break the makeout sessions off sooner than she'd like, saying that you have to do something else.

Tease them about how much they want you... but you haven't made up your mind.

In short, leave 'em wanting more.

Pretty soon, they'll start attacking you.

Finally, when you're finally ready to cut her some slack... be ready. Have the room cleaned. Have her light some candles. Put on some music. Set a romantic mood.

Women, in general, like the fantasy of having it "just happen", instead of being the object of giving into a guy fumbling a million times. Or as a "reward" for being treated well. Or giving into a guy's pleading.

So... when the time is right... just let it happen. And give 'em what they want.

Maryann says:

Well, once again Scott has set the standard for honesty, openness, and fearlessness applied effectively to succeed at eH, this time applied to sex. Well done.

A note to women: (shut your eyes, guys… this is not for you!) As a feminist, I find pornography destructive to male self-esteem. It makes men think about how to achieve success rather than how to receive, give, and share in healthy, earthy, fan-damn-tastic sex. Guys are so interested in their own performance and whether or not they scored the woman’s orgasm, they forget they have a real, living breathing human being before them who wants to connect, even if just physically. (I know some of you guys are reading this because you just can’t help yourselves, so I’ll tell you. It is true. Women can only want to connect physically. We are not all looking for the meaning of life and a commitment for eternity in the eyes of our lover at that special moment. Ugh.)

So, for these reasons, I had “Can’t Stand Pornography” in my list originally. That was my only mention of sex any place in my profile or guided communication. While it was true, it was not the whole story, so I found another true way to present myself. I dropped that out (though, trust me, we have this conversation before they get near my bed!), and put in “Can’t Stand Uninterested” (I can’t stand a partner who is uninterested in sex on a regular basis.) That is also true. Why would I want to be in a relationship with a guy who thinks a good time is crashing on my sofa to watch TV while I do dishes in the other room? Those are called teenagers, not lovers.

Finally, I considered choosing a “passionate” or “experienced” Must Have, but decided against it. Guys want to work for our sexual expressions, and they should. I’m not a prostitute who performs on demand out of a pre-conceived expectation. I am a real woman with something real to offer, in bed and out. They can appreciate me for the whole package or they can move on. So, that is my version of fearlessness in eH.

I also agree with Scott that we women should set the pace for the move from guided communication through the first dates to the “talk” and finally the act. The guys are willing and ready and we should give them clues about when we are ready to take the next step ~ one step at a time. A guy who pushes too hard gets pushed out of my queue! Not to overstate it, but rape is a real fear for women and we’ll err on the side of protecting ourselves, even from a guy who seems otherwise like he could be The One. Too much, too soon is a deal breaker if it is not “natural” and within an open context of safety (he’ll take no for an answer if I start to get uncomfortable). Words like “respect,” “honor,” and “care” go a long way here, guys. Here is an actual quote that put me at ease in the context of The Talk. “I look forward to knowing you intimately. Please be sure I will honor and care for you. You have nothing to fear from me, my sweetheart.”

Something that direct and verbalized is probably not necessary most of the time, but this was a specific circumstance. I’m just giving you an idea of what I’m talking about.

About sex - and deciding what YOU want.

So, you've done things right so far - you're with a woman, and you're attracted to each other. And things are feeling good.

So, when is it time to get it on?

That depends on what you're looking for. And what she's looking for.

And you need to be very clear on what you're looking for. Because women will not want to be with a man who thinks that sex is worth much more, or much less, than they do. And if a man does not make the meaning of sex clear... she's going to be very uncomfortable. And when she's uncomfortable, nothing is going to happen.

So, when it's comfortable, bring it into the conversation. Don't force it. Wait for the subject to open. If the chemistry is there... it will come up on it's own.

If you're interested in only physical relationships, tell her about the fact that you're dating a lot of women, and you're only interested in a physical relationship for now.

If you want to wait until you're married, talk about how a lot of women become impatient with your moral beliefs that sex is something that should occur after marriage.

If you feel you should have sex only with people who have "relationship potential", talk about how you've had to dump women who you've had chemistry with, because they felt conflicted about having a relationship.

Or, if you feel that chemistry is all you need... don't be afraid to tell them about how so many women refuse to take relationships a step at a time, and ruin "the moments" in the pursuit of their agenda.

And, yes, when you do this, you're facing the very real possibility that a woman won't like what you're offering. But, if she's uncomfortable with what you offer... you're better off finding someone who is.

As I always say, "No fear".

From the labs: Fast-track communication template

Okay, folks, for those of you who are braving the fast-track road... this is the message template series that's working best for me so far.

This is a three-letter sequence. Casual phrasing and social behavior are very important. Even more important than in letters written after a guided communication sequence.

Letter #1:
Begin with a salutation, thank her for agreeing to the fast track, saying that you feel this is a friendlier way to get to know each other. Close this paragraph with a light observe and challenge statement.

Open a new paragraph, ask one quick and easy question about something in the profile that intrigued you.

Letter's done. This should be very short.

Letter #2:
Give a salutation. Observe something she said or did in the last letter, and give her a funny, but minimal compliment. ("Glad to see you're not the type of girl who would [do something really silly]" would be a good one.)

Open a new paragraph, give one or two sentences that continue the conversational flow from her letter. Don't answer a lot of questions, try to leave open conversational hooks.

Next (your call as to whether this merits a new paragraph or not), ask a few questions that relate to the conversational flow. Three questions should be a pretty good number. These can be a little more "in-depth" than the one you asked in letter #1, but should still be friendly and conversational.

Close by mentioning some things you're doing in the next week that will be keeping you busy, tell her you're looking forward to talking some more.

Letter #3:
Ask for the number with letter #2 from my open communication template.

And there you go. Easy-breezy.

Maryann says:

Guys,

I have decided not to initiate Fast Track any more. Maybe it is a gender thing, but it seemed to backfire when I tried it. But, I must say, nobody has tried this template with me, and it looks great!

The eH guided communication gets really burdensome after a while. A guy with skills who tried this tack would look fresh and refreshing to me. Good luck! Please report your results if you try it!

War Story: Overgamed and Underqualified, Final thoughts

So, what do I make of that disaster?

The problem, really wasn't one of my "game". As far as game goes - this was a marathon run. On the whole, things were "handled" well. Sure, it wasn't perfect - but such things rarely are.

The problem is - game is a tool. It's a tool for developing and maintaining a state of attraction. And it was working - she frequently commented upon how charming I was.

The problem? The game was the only thing that I was focusing on.

And, when you do that, you can develop attraction - but not necessarily to the right target.

Yes, she was good looking. No doubt there. But she has a lot of problems. And a relationship with her would be a living hell. She was not the person that I wanted to develop attraction with.

And, yes, the signs were there. Very early.

She needed a nudge at every step of guided communication. This indicates someone who's preoccupied, or uninterested. Neither of which is worth the effort I expended.

After the kiss, she gave me a marathon session explaining why she wasn't ready for a relationship. And if I could think of anything other than how to win her over... I would have listened.

Bottom line - I got the outcome that I worked hard to obtain. And, in a sense, I deserved the result.

"Oh, come on", you might say. "I'd never continue something like that."

I posted this story to another seduction board... and that's pretty much what they said too.

But, it was only weeks later... calls were on the board for help with women who were doing the same things that this woman was doing. Asking for help on how to win over women who were preoccupied with other problems.

It's easy to get blinded by someone's beauty, or your need to master the game.... and miss the target you are going for. The relationship you want, with a woman worthy of your attention.

And some women are distractions. Not targets.

Maryann adds:

Scott wrote that some women are distractions, not targets. This is a really odd thing about dating, in general. On the one hand, we all need to practice just meeting new people, flirting, learning when and how to move to kissing, etc. On the other hand, while one of you is practicing, the other is falling in love or is scrutinizing everything, looking for a reason not to fall in love.

I used to naively think it was best to just be honest with each other about what we were doing and the outcome each of us was looking for, but it turns out that is just another game, or another turn in the game. The truth is, we don’t know which relationships will turn out to just be practice and which will develop into more. If we lean too much on the practice part, we end up with Scott’s experience of just going too far down a dead end street. If we focus too intently on finding The One, then all of our scrutinizing and screening will scare off the strongest candidates. After all, someone who is comfortable with himself (in my case) and is ready to offer love and kindness will not particularly enjoy a game of proving himself over and over on multiple shit tests.

I’m knee deep in this quandary right now. Since uploading an “8” picture, and re-working my profile a bit, I’m now on a hot streak, with five live men showing interest. Just this morning by eight am, I had received two phone calls and three emails. They are all out of town, so nothing too immediate is planned. One man is coming to my town on Friday, but we don’t have definite plans yet. So, I find myself in the startling new position of needing to make choices among them.

Am I just leading on the more marginal options? Or, am I remaining open to possibilities? Am I potentially screwing up the two I’m most interested in by playing around with the other three? At what point will I need to make a choice? Or, will they all disappear as quickly as they appeared? Perhaps I should keep working my inbox to keep a steady stream coming in until I am actually in a “committed relationship.”

So guys (and you women who read this), the truth is, you never know anything until you find out. We’re all groping in the dark on some level. One major lesson of dating is to learn to forgive ourselves and our dates for stumbling around and making some of these “mistakes.” There really is not a perfect way to go.

War Story: Overagmed and Underqualified, Part 2.

Continued from our last chapter...

The next day, I receive an email. It's been awhile ago, and I don't remember the exact language she used, but one phrase that I think came close was, "You seem like a nice guy, but I'm not really sure yet."

I called her back later that day. She quickly starts to ask me questions about my divorce, and I tell her some of the story - essentially, that she had some real, personal problems that she refused to address, and the relationship couldn't function anymore. She quickly became concerned, telling me that she had fibromyalgia (a chronic pain syndrome that many people believe to be psychological), and my story really had her worried. She told me, "You told me that it's important for you to date people who are Jewish [a part of answering the "Why are you on eHarmony" question], and I respect that... but I need to know that you think Fibromyalgia is real, and you can deal with it."

I told her that I didn't know whether fibromyalgia was real or not, but I'm sure that her pain was, and I wasn't the type to argue about it. As for whether I'd be able to deal with it... I didn't know enough yet. I told her that I'm looking for someone who I could build a relationship with, and, if she's too sick to have one, it wouldn't work. And I asked her if that's really possible for her. She replied, "yes". A few awkward moments, she asked how I was feeling about our conversation, I replied it's a little weird... but I think we're bonding. She agreed, and went on a quick digression about, "I NEVER kiss on the first date. Never EVER!!", and I replied with, "Yeah, and I could tell you really hated it." She laughed, conversation ended quickly, and we set up a weekend to meet again.

Text banter followed, pretty flirtatious in nature. As I was driving up, she texted me that she needed some help from me... and when I arrived, she instructed me on how to apply some patches to her back for her pain. After that, the greeting was a little cold, but we went to our date (a jazz festival downtown), and the physical ice was finally broken when she giggled as I mentioned playing with our food. I went, "Hmm... I think I know what you like...", dabbed some of the lemon square desert on her cheek, kissed it off. She looked at me with a mock look of horror, I replied, "your turn". She smeared some on my lips - and it was on. To a point where we were quite a spectacle. I think one guy yelled, "Look at the classy guy getting it on with the hot chick!" We both laughed, I returned her home. She asked what I had planned the next day, I mentioned using the hotel gym/pool, and some shopping I had to do - my black pants were messy from the picnic, and I was going to wear them the next day. She was excited by the shopping.

Next day - I didn't get a call from her until late afternoon. She said that the fatigue got to her. I just mentioned that I did my workout... We meet up for lunch - things are a little more comfortable physically. We go to lunch, she asks a lot of questions regarding our separation, my ex-wife's repeated promises to change... and why I didn't stay. I finally asked her, "Well, when would you decide you've had enough excuses, and just accept that she's not going to change?"

She says, "Good point. I've always had problems with that." And starts going into the story with her cheatin' ex-husband. And her continued struggles with him. Over stuff that most people consider "lost causes" in divorce. Like the copy of Windows XP that she was supposed to get from him. Things that just aren't worth the effort for most people going through a divorce.

More mild shit-testing occurs during the day. Over dinner, I kind of confront her about how she likes to pick fights for attention - she gets angry. Actually starts crying. I apologize (mostly to shut her up), we go to the play we had planned (I already bought the ticket), she settles down.

We meet the next day, she's making an effort. Made breakfast for me, looking really good, even for her. And the next day goes well. The day ends, she mentions relaxing with some television at home at the end of the day, I say I'll join her.

We both flop on the beanbag in front of her television, start cuddling, quickly move to making out, and we're pretty hot n' heavy to third base. She tells me that she's got some "trigger points" that need to be relaxed before we go further, or she "can't release" because of her fibromyalgia, and goes to her bedroom for some latex gloves and lubricant. (Already, this isn't sounding like so much fun anymore.)

On the way to the bedroom, the phone rings. She reads the caller I.D., and picks up the phone. Some screaming and carrying on in the bedroom (not the kind I want), she eventually comes out, asking if we could just rest. I agree, ask if it's the ex-husband, she answers yes.

I leave an hour or so later, head home. I call the next day, we decide to be friends.

So... that's the disaster. We'll pick through the "lessons learned" tomorrow.

War Story: Overgamed and Underqualified, Part 1.

Soon after people start understanding the principles espoused by the seduction community, they're usually very eager to practice their skills. Suddenly, every woman becomes a target - especially the attractive ones.

Unfortunately, people who do this often discover that, although good "game" can build attraction, it doesn't make your target any better.

And, in this vein... here's the beginning to a cautionary tale.

This was one of the first matches I "hooked" when I was starting to get my game together. At first, I wondered if she might be a scam profile - she had one picture (and she did look good), and several lines that were more sexually suggestive than most. (One of the things she couldn't live without was the feeling after orgasm.) But, she did respond to communication.

Slowly. VERY slowly. Requiring a nudge after every single step. And a cocky-funny "no response" letter, followed my closure due to lack of response... where she ended up following me on email.

Luckily, I had a business trip to her city in a few weeks, and she agreed, via email, to a phone call to make arrangements. The phone call was pretty friendly (but not really flirtatious, which isn't my usual phone style), with her asking about what brought me into town, our reasons we tried eHarmony, discussion that we were both divorced (she brought up the subject, and it quickly passed), one unusual question (my birthdate) and into the planning of the date. I offered to meet her for lunch at a Thai restaurant I enjoyed, she agreed, and asked if there was anything planned for the evening... I replied that we could decide after we met. I mentioned that my hairstyle was going to be a little different from the pictures, and the phone call ended with the seduction classic, "Sounds good... At least, I'll have a new friend to say, "Hi" to when I visit (her city), right?" It definitely took her back, and she replied "exactly!"

There was some text banter between them and the date... and at one time (because of her asking for my birthdate), teasingly texted her to ask if there was anything on my background check that I needed to know about. She never responded to that question...

We met on the date - and she looked great. Easily, one of the most attractive people I've been on a date with. The greeting was kind of cold, body language was avoidant and distant. We got to our table, and she pulled a few pages out of her purse, and told me that she looked up our astrological compatibility. I laughed, and said, "I wondered why you asked that. I thought you were doing a background check on me." She replied that she thought my question seemed a little odd... but quickly started to read straight from the page - which described how fundamentally incompatible our star signs were, with her emphasizing my cold, calculating, and emotionally shielded nature. After reading this, she asked me, "What do you think?"

I replied, "Wow. You sure take this stuff seriously."

She laughed, and said, "Well, not really. But do you think that describes you?"

I laughed, and said, "No...", and told her that most people think I'm pretty much a "cards on the table" kind of guy. Her body language softened somewhat, there was some light touch... things started to get better after that point. When desert time came, I told her that there wasn't much offered here... but there was a chocolate place up the road. She told me that she could only eat white chocolate... but okay. We walked there, I offerred my arm, she took it quickly and smiled broadly. She started complimenting me on my new haircut, asked if I liked how she looked (indicators of interest, folks...), and I tossed in some self-depricating humor about how much could be done with what hair I had left...

We got to the Chocolatier... The body language was mixed. At times, warm, at times, avoidant. I was having trouble making sense of it. Into the conversation, she noticed that I had a chocolate stain high up on my pants, she got some ice water from the counter, and started to clean it.

Despite the mixed picture I was getting from her body language, I figured she's got to be pretty comfortable if she's cleaning a stain that high on my leg. Thinking through the possibilities on what might work to "cut through" the defense... I went with Mystery's kiss close - I asked, "So, do you want me to kiss you?", she acted somewhat surprised and said, "What kind of question is that?", I replied, "Let's find out", and went for it.

We made out for a couple of minutes, and she broke, saying, "I've got to breathe. I'm seeing stars." I jokingly said back, "Breathing is good", gave her a few minutes, we went back at it again.

I walked her back to the train station after that, she asked about another time, I said I'd check my schedule when I got back home, and I'd call her. Kiss goodbye, date ended.

Do you think that went well? Not really. And you'll see why, in part 2.

Another blog to check out...

Looks like HeyWould Floyd, one of our more active members, has started his own blog.

This should be interesting. Check it out.